Hi Andrew,

 

I know that there will be quite a few girls interested in this topic, so I wanted to ask you what you think of plyometrics for leaning out legs that may lag when it comes to fat loss.

 

If you think it is something that can shock the body into responding if your legs have become accustomed to heavy weights and low reps, what kind of exercises would you put on a plyometric leg training day?

 

Taa!

Rae

That's a very interesting question...

Before I answer I want to clarify a few things.

1) Most people have no business doing plyometrics in the manner commonly associated with them. This is because:
a) Most experts agree that to safely perform true plyometric work you need to be able to perform a double bodyweight full squat. I don't see too many people in gyms able to do that.
b) True plyometrics involve the excitation of the Stretch Shortening Cycle. Common methods involve depth/ rebound jumps from heights of 65cm or more.

2) They are very hard on the nervous system. Muscular fatigue is easily noticed - either you're sore or you're not. But CNS fatigue is much harder to diagnose. Days where your muscles "felt" fine but had no spark, no energy and felt like you needed to crawl back into bed? That's CNS fatigue (also commonly seen in real cases of over training).

3) People take a good idea, and like a lot of things relating to fitness, not very nice manise it to the point where it is useless. A good plyometric workout for an elite athlete would involve around 150 contacts, a beginner maybe 80-100. A contact being defined as exactly that - every single time a body part touches the ground and rebounds.

4) Because they are all about CNS excitation people revert back to the "more is better" mindset. "No pain no gain" only works in commercials. When the quality of movement is lost - ie maximum speed and height of rebound - the set should be terminated. Instead, people choose to carry on performing rep after rep of garbage. Training the body to move suboptimally only leaves you slower and weaker. What they end up training is strength endurance and while that is a worthy training goal for many, it is not plyometrics.

Which leads me to what I think you've asked -

I am presuming you mean can you use fast, repetitive movements to lean the legs out? But not have them be plyometrics. The reason true plyos may not be very useful is because you simply can't perform them properly for extended periods of time, maybe 10 seconds maximum.

Given I'm kind of thinking out loud I'll offer some thoughts:

1) The best way to get a muscle to change shape/ tone is through tension. Tesnion is achieved through use of training parameters that involve using muscles at greater than 85% of your 1RM. In this case, plyos will work. While the muscles learn to fire quickly, they are not under tension for long enough to cause muscular change. They are a method of achieving increased function of the nervous system, not the muscular system.

So...

2) Because the muscles won't be under tension for long periods of time, females (who have a greater proportion of slow twitch muscle in their legs) may not find the length of work done adequate to foster change.

But then again...

If you're talking about speed movements that aren't plyometric here's what I'd suggest:

Burpees (yes, really). A well performed Burpee with the push up and jump is a speed exercise not to mention a great cardiovascular tool. However, if you can't do at least 10 in 30 seconds you're probably moving too slowly to get all the benefits you could from this exercise. Solution = go and spend more time on maximal strength work.

Jump Lunges. A great execise. An awesome hip and thigh strengthener. Like with all plyometrics the key is to minimise contact time on the ground. It shouldn't be Jump, land, drop into lunge, regain balance and jump. It all needs to be one fluid movement. Again, if that is unable to be performed the solution = more time spent on maximal strength work.

Jump Squats . Jump squats done with either little load or a maximum of 30% of your 1RM. These can either be performed in cyclic fashion attempting to minimise contact time or as single reps done with minimal pause to regain form. Again, if the person can't even squat correctly, there is no way in hell they should be allowed to do this. The solution again = more time spent on maximal strength work.

Box Jumps. Either single or one legged. One of the benefits to these as a prelude to true plyometrics is that they have no eccentric phase. While that means they are easier on the body it also means that for sporting applications (other than cycling) they are virtually useless. Again, if the person is unable to perform these with good form they need to head back to the squat rack and build up their maximal strength (seeing a pattern yet? LOL)

To put this in perspective -

My elite volleyball guys all front squat over 110kg for reps. My girls front squat over 80kg. The boys power clean around 100kg, the girls around 55kg. Boys deadlift 140kg plus and the girls around 90kg. Out of all these, there are only two guys who are allowed do depth jumps. All the rest get rebound drills to build landing and force reversal skill but aren't yet allowed do real plyos because of the risks involved.

Personally, I think if you're looking to lean the legs out pre comp there are better ways, such as better diet control. Women are not blessed in the fat storage of their legs and sadly if you're one of the women who is dealt that hand there's not much you can do about it legally. The fat receptors in the thighs are a stubborn bunch for many.

Awesome answer thanks Andrew. I learned a lot from it.

Thanks!

I was thinking about this last night and reckon I've got another idea that might help.

Sprints.

While sprints don't technically qualify as plyometric they are close. The added benefit they have is great emphasis on hip extension (great glute and hamstring activation) as well as being a great fat burner because of the recovery cost of the training (EPOC).

To start with I'd recommend taking it easy:

Day 1 - 5 x 50m 100% sprints with 2-3 minutes recovery between each.
Day 2 - normal leg training.

Repeat this sequence each week adding a sprint ever week until you get to 10 sprints. From there there are many options such as adding another day of running, double splitting the run with a weight session later in the day, decreasing rest intervals, increasing the length of the runs.

To start with you may look at this and think its not much, but I've seen adults crippled by 5 x 100% sprints over such short distances. No matter how well trained you are in the gym there's nothing you can do to replicate the speed of sprinting so the body is ill prepared for it. At the very least your calves and hip extensors should be nice and sore the day after!

And you only have to look at Olympic sprinters to see the wonders their training does for their leg and glute development!!

MMMM, GREAT eye candy... oops sorry, i'm married! lol... xxx

No harm in lookin' Lindy

Hm, that was really interesting.
and.. agreed on the eye candy. Its fine to look at the menu as long as you eat at home

Thanks for starting this thread Rae,
Nice to have something you've tried re-inforced by an expert.
About six months ago, I decided losing weight wasn't going to be enough for me - I also wanted to change the shape my body had gotten into...
My husband who is an experienced runner /mountain biker started taking me out for runs...the first challenge he set me was to do sprints - short sprints like Andrew described, at first I was lucky to manage 3 during a half hour walk/jog but slowly built up.
I have to say my upper legs were the first thing to start shrinking and showing sign of muscle...must get back into them.
Eye candy..oooh yeah and it's on my menu at home, Casey LOL ;-)

I'm definitely going to try the sprints on the weekend Andrew... will let you know how I pull up (if they haven't carted me off to hospital that is... LOL!!)

Remember to take a big warm up. Think of sprinting as getting ready to do single rep max strength work. Ideally there would be a heap of sprint drills you'd do beforehand to get the body ready and prime the system as well as a big dynamic warm up. Defintely no static stretching prior. If, at any time, you feel tightness, slow down or stop immediately.

I'm keen to hear how you go.

OK I gotta jump in here. I just went down the road to the local park to do a stairs session (like to throw them in every now and again) and added 5 x 50m sprints in (after warming up but before hitting the stairs)...OMG what a difference!! I was exhausted after just doing the runs. Funny enough I used to do 5 x 100m but couldn't go 100% for 5 runs at that distance so felt the 50m efforts were more effective, even though they were shorter.

Andrew I have a question while we are on this topic. I was doing this type of training regularly a few months back (sprints / stair work) twice weekly but ended up flaring up an achilles injury I initially suffered about a year ago while doing hill sprints. I have only just now (as in the last 2 weeks) been able to incorporate any type of running/stair work into my program so easing back into it, but I find now that my hammy on the same leg is getting mega tight and sore, and I am getting pain where the hammy and calf tie in behind the knee area. This pain is pretty consistant but really affects my leg workouts as anything that isolates the hamstring is quite painful. Could this be related to the achilles problem and aside from stretching (and maybe massage?) do you know of anything I can do to help this?

The calf is made up of two muscles, the Gastrocnemius and Soleus. Only the Gastrocnemius ties over the knee too so as well as working to point your toes it also works to bend the knee. It is possible that if you had a slight tear previously that it will show up when performing anything that involves knee flexion.

The hamstring obviously crosses over the knee too, so if you've had a slkight tear of that it will affect anything involving hip extension/ knee flexion. Running up hills, stairs and sprinting is not a great choice if your hamstring strength is subpar.

First things first - go see someone good. I don't mean a GP or the local physio either. I mean spend the money, go see an exceptional physio and if needs be onto an equally exceptional orthopedic dr.

Without seeing you firsthand I can't say what your prolem is, but some signs:

Tight/ sore hammy = glute on that side not functioning correctly. Means the hamstring complex is overworked. In that case not surprised it is sore. Get stronger glutes.

Lower leg problems = most people don't run well at all. Get an experienced coach to sort out your form. Then focus on strengthening the chain from the foot. Up the Plantar Fascia takes an enormous strain when running correctly and in most people lies almost completely dormant meaning other systems higher up the leg have to take the strain. Low level, phase 1 plyometrics will help to reteach the body how to absorb and reverse shock, as will static eccentric loadings of the calf.

So, to summarise - go see someone good (no debates, if you have an injury for more than two weeks, and it troubles you doing anything then you need to see someone) and then get stronger.

Posted By Andrew Read on 24 Jul 2009 02:40 PM
The calf is made up of two muscles, the Gastrocnemius and Soleus. Only the Gastrocnemius ties over the knee too so as well as working to point your toes it also works to bend the knee. It is possible that if you had a slight tear previously that it will show up when performing anything that involves knee flexion.

The hamstring obviously crosses over the knee too, so if you've had a slkight tear of that it will affect anything involving hip extension/ knee flexion. Running up hills, stairs and sprinting is not a great choice if your hamstring strength is subpar.

First things first - go see someone good. I don't mean a GP or the local physio either. I mean spend the money, go see an exceptional physio and if needs be onto an equally exceptional orthopedic dr.

Without seeing you firsthand I can't say what your prolem is, but some signs:

Tight/ sore hammy = glute on that side not functioning correctly. Means the hamstring complex is overworked. In that case not surprised it is sore. Get stronger glutes.

Lower leg problems = most people don't run well at all. Get an experienced coach to sort out your form. Then focus on strengthening the chain from the foot. Up the Plantar Fascia takes an enormous strain when running correctly and in most people lies almost completely dormant meaning other systems higher up the leg have to take the strain. Low level, phase 1 plyometrics will help to reteach the body how to absorb and reverse shock, as will static eccentric loadings of the calf.

So, to summarise - go see someone good (no debates, if you have an injury for more than two weeks, and it troubles you doing anything then you need to see someone) and then get stronger.

Thanks so much for your feedback Andrew. I will definitely have it seen to in the next few days and will keep away from this kind of training in the interim

Vicki

No worries. Glad to help.

I get a bit upset when people are injured. Not saying its the case here but if your answer to the question "Does it hurt?" is anything other than a resounding "NO!" then your answer is "yes".

If its a yes then you need to get it seen to. I watch too many people try to struggle on for ages with injuries that then lead to all sorts of other problems. A sore knee causes a change in gait that then stresses the back which works its way into the shoulder - a single injury then causes three problems! And btw that is a very typical pathology for an injury.

Coming from a sports background I am not prepared to suffer for weeks waiting to get better. If it hits the 2 week mark and its not better off to the drs we go.

Your frustration is very understandable! The reason I didn't do much with it this time round (and probably a very stupid reason) was that when I initially injured my achilles I went to see the physio and while he did a bit of work on it, he gave me a few exercises to do at home etc - so I figured this time round I would do the same, plus avoid things that aggrivated it. In saying that I should have paid more attention to it this time as it was probably worse this time round, to the point that the only cardio I could do for several weeks was the bike (it hurt to walk, in fact it hurt pretty much from the time I woke up in the morning and put in on the ground).

And I completely understand the referred pain thing...I injured my back in a car accident several years ago and ended up having surgery on my knee as a result of my back injury 4 years later! 

Again, thanks for the advice and I will definitely get it looked at and sorted out asap

Vicki 

This is a great thread, and I have to say, I've often "thought" about Plyo (I used to do a lot of it)  and thinking, "I don't think my form is anywhere near good enough for these exercises". 

Then I discovered the sprinting and steps! (all by myself!! Wasn't I cleaver???LOL).

Vicki, I sympathise with the achilles thing.  I have the same issue.  It recently flared up again and its the worst its ever been.

My question is this : Would correct running shoes make much of a difference?  I tend to run in my normal training shoes.  I havn't invested in a good pair of runners as I don't really do heaps of it.   Should I invest in a good running shoe? I've been told Asics are the best.  Agree? Disagree? 

Have I put this question in the wrong spot?  Sorry. I didn't really know quite where to put it.

 

YES!! You should have good running shoes. I swear by Asics, in fact I should see if they can offer me sponsorship coz I go through so many pairs... LOL!! The wrong kind of shoes can cause so many problems. Sore arches, shin splints, sore knees, jarring to your joints, the list is endless!! Well worth the money.

Don't want to start a war but ditch the shoes. Modern athletic shoes are more responsible for injuries and poor movement patterns than anything else in the "fitness" industry.

How can you tell?

Check what Nike have done with the Free. They spent hundreds of thousands of dollars working on this thing and what did they come up with? A shoe that mimics barefoot training (poorly) and that is more like the runners they entered the market with in the late '60s than anything else they have ever done. So what we should really be asking is how come we've all wasted hundreds of dollars a pair on things with shock aborbers in them, mocrio processors, ipod doodads and all the bells and whistles if what we should really be running in is nothing?

Nothing doesn't make anyone any money, that's why.

If you want to read more go here: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/mos...money.html

Having spent some time with a world marathon champ two weeks ago one of the things that struck me most is his movement away from modern sportswear. He runs, when he does run now, in either Vibram five fingers or in a pair of very minimal shoes "like the ones he first ran in". All of my clients train barefoot. I have the oppostie rule to most people - shoes on, no training! The foot os the start of the kinetic chain and if the message from the ground to the foot is fuzzy how can the rest of the body reasonably be expected to perform properly?

Hi, as a woman on a journey of reshaping the body I'd like to send you all a great big THANK-YOU for this thread and info!
I've lost 16kgs in the past year(now 52kilos/160cm) and while I'm pretty happy with my size-I'm unhappy with the 'smaller shaped version' of the old me.
my current goal is to build up some muscle to attempt to re-comp my body fat(currently 21-22%) & muscle ratios and HOPEFULLY lose the saddlebags & cellulite in the process? this sprinting sounds like it may be 'key' when incorporated into a 4 day spilt heavy weight/low rep routine...would that be correct? If so, how often should I look at doing the sprints? and, are they just as effective on the treadmill?

thanks in advance ;-)